Home SK - Stocks, Property, Investment Chamas - Investment Groups BIZ - Small Business Soko - Market Wazua Life About Wazua
SIGN IN REGISTER
Monday, Jul 6, 2020
Investor
We’re investing funds for profit. Join us and wazua!
FEATURE  

LATEST DISCUSSIONS
Realities of Forex Investment [3901]
Why dustbowl is the future [556]
Kenya Airways...why ignore.. [14990]
Building an Apartment Block [4]
VituVingiSana's MIGHTY road to wealth. Take notes! [60]
Exchange Bar: Results forecast [2196]
Speculating in cryptocurrencies: A rough approach [272]
Coop Bank 2019 [107]
Safaricom 2019/2020 [370]
Mumias Sugar huge demand [2846]
4 family (3 bed/2bath) flat budget Ksh. 5m [235]
Nation Media Group HY 2019 profit down 24% [74]
Best Money Market fund in Kenya [286]
My stock broker Rating [50]
Good to be back and another project in the offing! [26]
 
Forum Jump








Welcome Guest Search | Active Topics | Log In | Register

6 Pages«<23456>
Value Investing doesn't work anymore
sqft
#61 Posted : Wednesday, June 03, 2020 10:15:38 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/10/2015
Posts: 493
Location: Kenya
I think that @amorphous (or whoever he may morph into) has raised a very important point which all investors must not ignore. And that is - can one live off investments at the NSE? To maintain a middle-class lifestyle in Nairobi you need some 300k each month. So it means that if you are lucky to get a 10% dividend (before tax) to maintain the lifestyle, you need to have an investment of KES 36m at the NSE. I don't want to bring in the issue of capital gains or capital losses. So how many wazuans have invested 36m at the NSE?

The only wazuan to have declared his portfolio at NSE is @obiero. All the other wazuans list some amorphous percentages of their holdings so one can never know the amount of their investment at the NSE.

So let's look at a typical wazuan's portfolio, in this case @obieros last known portfolio: 5500 COOP, 2000 HF, 7500 KCB, 100000 KENR, 392,100 KQ. At today's prices (3rd June 2020) COOP (12.40), HF (3.74), KCB (34.95), KNRE (2.30), KQ (1.99), his portfolio is worth about 1.35m. If a miracle happens and he gets a 10% dividend, that's 135k pa, or 11k a month before tax. So how would he survive on such an amount? Even a mama mboga makes more than that. Is the 11K worth the time and stress involved monitoring the stock market performance every day?

What money can't do, more money can do.
S.Mutaga III
#62 Posted : Wednesday, June 03, 2020 10:33:39 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/26/2012
Posts: 830
Fyatu wrote:
S.Mutaga III wrote:
There are several threads on this forum by people like Stocksmaster proving that value investing works. Most of us guys just don't know how to find value. That's the problem.

However, I think value investing is a lot harder in first world developed markets because there are too many hedge funds and professionals with billions of cash looking for value. That makes it a lot harder to find.



@S.Mutaga III. What are you buying/have you bought this year 2020? What was your entry price and when/what price are you exiting? Thanks in advance

I'm out of stocks this year. I wouldn't risk investing before seeing how covid-19 affects the income statements of companies. We are living in "interesting" times. KCB may appear as a bargain at 35 only to issue a profit warning later in the year. What appears as a bargain right now may not be a bargain if you factor in covid-19. So, I am out of stocks for now.
A successful man is not he who gets the best, it is he who makes the best from what he gets.
S.Mutaga III
#63 Posted : Wednesday, June 03, 2020 10:35:22 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/26/2012
Posts: 830
sparkly wrote:
The evolution of @Mugundaman posts.


@Mugundaman's posts under any of his aliases take a pre defined path of 5 stages.

1. Stage one - he starts with innocuous one sentence posts with smiling facesmile and lol-ling Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly emojis.

2. Stage two - He realizes that like a naughty child in class, you are not paying attention and digesting his points. He introduces all CAPS, brackets, and bold fonts for emphasize. Red and green are his favorite colours. To hammer home his points and eradicate the nonsense in your head, he will then throw in links and embedded photos. Not forgetting snippets in Swahili and Sheng.

3. Stage three - You think he was done? No no no he was just warming up. He now goes for the jugular, attacking "A" students, stocks investment (obviously), evil western economics and despotic employment. At this point he let's all loose: smileys + ALL CAPs + Underline + Bold + Slang + coloured fonts. He throwns in YouTube links for good measure. By now he will be averaging a post an hour even at the unholy hours of 2-4 am.

4. Stage four - the coup de grace. He has shown your errant ways. Finally, he delivers the coup de grace, a lecture on religious morality. His main focus is avoiding fombe for men and being chaste for women. He recommends living an eunuched life in DC as the solution for all problems.

5. Stage five - Finito, it is done. Having taught his lessons, he declares that he is finished. Like the son of man, he leaves wazua to come back under a different handle.
Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
A successful man is not he who gets the best, it is he who makes the best from what he gets.
sqft
#64 Posted : Wednesday, June 03, 2020 10:49:24 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/10/2015
Posts: 493
Location: Kenya
amorphous wrote:
sparkly wrote:
The evolution of @Mugundaman posts.


@Mugundaman's posts under any of his aliases take a pre defined path of 5 stages.

1. Stage one - he starts with innocuous one sentence posts with smiling facesmile and lol-ling Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly emojis.

2. Stage two - He realizes that like a naughty child in class, you are not paying attention and digesting his points. He introduces all CAPS, brackets, and bold fonts for emphasize. Red and green are his favorite colours. To hammer home his points and eradicate the nonsense in your head, he will then throw in links and embedded photos. Not forgetting snippets in Swahili and Sheng.

3. Stage three - You think he was done? No no no he was just warming up. He now goes for the jugular, attacking "A" students, stocks investment (obviously), evil western economics and despotic employment. At this point he let's all loose: smileys + ALL CAPs + Underline + Bold + Slang + coloured fonts. He throwns in YouTube links for good measure. By now he will be averaging a post an hour even at the unholy hours of 2-4 am.

4. Stage four - the coup de grace. He has shown your errant ways. Finally, he delivers the coup de grace, a lecture on religious morality. His main focus is avoiding fombe for men and being chaste for women. He recommends living an eunuched life in DC as the solution for all problems.

5. Stage five - Finito, it is done. Having taught his lessons, he declares that he is finished. Like the son of man, he leaves wazua to come back under a different handle.

Laughing out loudly

We should focus on the message and not the messenger. Keep on saying it kinaga ubaga @amorphous.
What money can't do, more money can do.
VituVingiSana
#65 Posted : Thursday, June 04, 2020 3:12:18 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 17,078
Location: Nairobi
sqft wrote:
I think that @amorphous (or whoever he may morph into) has raised a very important point which all investors must not ignore. And that is - can one live off investments at the NSE? To maintain a middle-class lifestyle in Nairobi you need some 300k each month. So it means that if you are lucky to get a 10% dividend (before tax) to maintain the lifestyle, you need to have an investment of KES 36m at the NSE. I don't want to bring in the issue of capital gains or capital losses. So how many wazuans have invested 36m at the NSE?

The only wazuan to have declared his portfolio at NSE is @obiero. All the other wazuans list some amorphous percentages of their holdings so one can never know the amount of their investment at the NSE.

So let's look at a typical wazuan's portfolio, in this case @obieros last known portfolio: 5500 COOP, 2000 HF, 7500 KCB, 100000 KENR, 392,100 KQ. At today's prices (3rd June 2020) COOP (12.40), HF (3.74), KCB (34.95), KNRE (2.30), KQ (1.99), his portfolio is worth about 1.35m. If a miracle happens and he gets a 10% dividend, that's 135k pa, or 11k a month before tax. So how would he survive on such an amount? Even a mama mboga makes more than that. Is the 11K worth the time and stress involved monitoring the stock market performance every day?

Wazuans are in different stages of their lives. What was "crazy money" when one is 20 isn't the same at 30 or 40 or 50 even after factoring in inflation. Live your own life.

1) I don't think many start off "wealthy" but invest from their earnings (salaries, business, etc). I was lucky to have found mentors who taught me the importance of SAVING from my first job right after high school. Haba na haba...
Try to spend LESS than you earn. Don't worry about Mark and his new car. Or Juma and his new sofa sets. Or Jane and her new 50" TV. Or Owuor who is always at the hottest club in town.

2) Compounding. Very, very important. If you can work from 20-50 (30 years) and keep investing NEW money (part of your monthly salary) and compound (dividends and capital gains) the growth could be huge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svbkVpeuwE4 "Snowball Effect"

3) Kibaki era. I will openly come out and say it. This was the BEST time for me. I do not know how to describe the craziness for you. In 20/20 hindsight it was unsustainable. An announcement of a bonus (same cake, more slices) would make the price increase. It wasn't uncommon to double an investment in 3 months. Ridiculous and as I found out it was unsustainable.

4) LUCK. Yes, lucky. If one had investible income in 2003 onwards. For some, the value of their land shot up like crazy.
Looking back, I wish I had invested everything I had in 2001/2002 when people were still despondent during the Moi era.
LUCK in buying the right firm. Laughing out loudly Those days I didn't know much about PERs, etc. It was momentum investing. Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
No, I do not recommend it.

5) We are different. Different habits. Different stages of life. Different tastes.
If you own your house, a modest car, in good health, don't gamble, don't smoke/drink excessively, travel modestly and don't have kids at home isn't 300k more than enough?

Of course, if you are partying every weekend, drink the top-shelf stuff at Sankara, lease a new-ish Mercedes, rent a high-end house in Westlands/Lavington, holiday abroad, fly business class, etc, send kids to ISK then 1mn/month isn't enough!

Finally, I will address this "All the other wazuans list some amorphous percentages of their holdings so one can never know the amount of their investment at the NSE."

Many, including myself, investors are shy about "declaring" their portfolio for reasons of privacy. Many of us older folk were brought up to be "modest" and "private" in matters concerning finance.

It could be cultural. I don't recall my grandfather, father and uncles ever discussing money with their families. Times are changing and I think it's good we do so nowadays.

Even Warren Buffett doesn't really discuss his personal wealth but talks of his companies/investments, Berkshire, etc. He does that given BH is a listed and has shareholders/partners.

Of course, you are free to share your portfolio with us. smile

And @Obiero has other investments.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
Monk
#66 Posted : Thursday, June 04, 2020 7:35:44 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 7/1/2009
Posts: 171
sqft wrote:
I think that @amorphous (or whoever he may morph into) has raised a very important point which all investors must not ignore. And that is - can one live off investments at the NSE? To maintain a middle-class lifestyle in Nairobi you need some 300k each month. So it means that if you are lucky to get a 10% dividend (before tax) to maintain the lifestyle, you need to have an investment of KES 36m at the NSE. I don't want to bring in the issue of capital gains or capital losses. So how many wazuans have invested 36m at the NSE?

The only wazuan to have declared his portfolio at NSE is @obiero. All the other wazuans list some amorphous percentages of their holdings so one can never know the amount of their investment at the NSE.

So let's look at a typical wazuan's portfolio, in this case @obieros last known portfolio: 5500 COOP, 2000 HF, 7500 KCB, 100000 KENR, 392,100 KQ. At today's prices (3rd June 2020) COOP (12.40), HF (3.74), KCB (34.95), KNRE (2.30), KQ (1.99), his portfolio is worth about 1.35m. If a miracle happens and he gets a 10% dividend, that's 135k pa, or 11k a month before tax. So how would he survive on such an amount? Even a mama mboga makes more than that. Is the 11K worth the time and stress involved monitoring the stock market performance every day?



@sqft If I'm not mistaken, Obiero is a self-declared trader and not a dividend hunter on the NSE. His amount of investment here is not representative.

Some Wazuans here like @Stocksmaster have proved repeatedly that combining dividend investing and trading volatile stocks can earn you much more than the 10% you used as a reference.

Some Income investors too earn much higher DYs than 10%, based on their ABPs and duration of holding. Think of those who've held Safaricom from when it was ranging at Ksh 3-5, and accumulated large quantities. Today they make at least 30% annually.
sparkly
#67 Posted : Thursday, June 04, 2020 7:40:20 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 7,795
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
sqft wrote:
If a miracle happens and he gets a 10% dividend, that's 135k pa, or 11k a month before tax. So how would he survive on such an amount? Even a mama mboga makes more than that. Is the 11K worth the time and stress involved monitoring the stock market performance every day?



1. 11k a month is a decent amount to get without working. Remember millions of Kenyans survive on less than a dollar per day (3,000 per month).

2. Mama mboga makes more than 11k per month, true depending on who your mama mboga is. A big supermarket chain like Carrefour is just a fancy mama mboga. Retail net margins are generally around 5% so mama mboga has to sell mboga worth kshs 2.6m per year to have a chance of making 11k per month.

3. Wealth is generated by working assets (more on assets later) to earn an income. Income is used in three ways. Firstly, by spending on basics and luxuries. Secondly, by saving for re-investment or for a rainy day. Thirdly by re-investing in assets that will generate future income. Naturally, spending more than your income leads to net liabilities.

4. Back to assets. There are 3 broad classes of assets that generate income. Firstly, the human body. A person labours for his employer or his clients to earn an income. Highly skilled labourers get paid more hence the reason why labourers invest in education and training for more skills.The second class of assets is tradeable goods. Traders sell (turn over) raw or manufactured goods to make a profit. The more specialized the goods the higher the profit earned. Third class of assets is rental assets like rental property or money i.e. passive investments. You lend your property or money to labourers and traders and get back a return of rent, interest or dividends.

5. People start and live their lives differently. Some are born to capital owners and never need to labour or trade. Others are born to traders and continue trading to earn their living. Still others are born to labourers and peasants and lack capital to trade or rent out. The latter class has no option but to sell their labour for an income.

6. Labourers should be aware that a normal human being works for 20-30 years then is deemed to lack the energy to work. He can however expect to live on average an extra 10-20 years while lacking the energy to work. During this time a labourer relies on income from passive investments accumulated when he/she had the energy to work. Note that reliance on children in old age is a very risky bet.

7. In conclusion ladies and gentlemen of wazua, nse exists for three purposes i.e. for passive investors to earn their incomes/ living, for traders to borrow capital for expansion of their businesses, for labourers to accumulate passive investment to keep them going after retirement. Compounding, as discussed by chief @VVS is a useful tool for labourers seeking to accumulate enough passive investments for a later time.
Life is short. Live passionately.
sqft
#68 Posted : Thursday, June 04, 2020 9:13:38 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/10/2015
Posts: 493
Location: Kenya
Nice thoughts and info from wazuans. Iam glad that @amorphous caused a storm for this to happen.
What money can't do, more money can do.
sparkly
#69 Posted : Thursday, June 04, 2020 9:34:17 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 7,795
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
sqft wrote:
Nice thoughts and info from wazuans. Iam glad that @amorphous caused a storm for this to happen.


The issue is not the message but delivery without decorum and basic netiquette smile
Life is short. Live passionately.
obiero
#70 Posted : Thursday, June 04, 2020 9:46:16 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 12,756
Location: nairobi
Monk wrote:
sqft wrote:
I think that @amorphous (or whoever he may morph into) has raised a very important point which all investors must not ignore. And that is - can one live off investments at the NSE? To maintain a middle-class lifestyle in Nairobi you need some 300k each month. So it means that if you are lucky to get a 10% dividend (before tax) to maintain the lifestyle, you need to have an investment of KES 36m at the NSE. I don't want to bring in the issue of capital gains or capital losses. So how many wazuans have invested 36m at the NSE?

The only wazuan to have declared his portfolio at NSE is @obiero. All the other wazuans list some amorphous percentages of their holdings so one can never know the amount of their investment at the NSE.

So let's look at a typical wazuan's portfolio, in this case @obieros last known portfolio: 5500 COOP, 2000 HF, 7500 KCB, 100000 KENR, 392,100 KQ. At today's prices (3rd June 2020) COOP (12.40), HF (3.74), KCB (34.95), KNRE (2.30), KQ (1.99), his portfolio is worth about 1.35m. If a miracle happens and he gets a 10% dividend, that's 135k pa, or 11k a month before tax. So how would he survive on such an amount? Even a mama mboga makes more than that. Is the 11K worth the time and stress involved monitoring the stock market performance every day?



@sqft If I'm not mistaken, Obiero is a self-declared trader and not a dividend hunter on the NSE. His amount of investment here is not representative.

Some Wazuans here like @Stocksmaster have proved repeatedly that combining dividend investing and trading volatile stocks can earn you much more than the 10% you used as a reference.

Some Income investors too earn much higher DYs than 10%, based on their ABPs and duration of holding. Think of those who've held Safaricom from when it was ranging at Ksh 3-5, and accumulated large quantities. Today they make at least 30% annually.

Only 5% of my total investment rests at the NSE at any given time.. Sometimes it dips below 3%.. I would never invest more than the said percentage as stock trading carries possibility of sudden total loss at worst or severe erosion of capital at best, but during good times you can also make a killing. I am a trader through and through for the capital gains. The dividends I drink with @maka
COOP 5,500 ABP12.6; HF 30,000 ABP 5.90; KCB 7,500 ABP 36; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92
Spikes
#71 Posted : Thursday, June 04, 2020 9:53:26 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/20/2015
Posts: 2,807
Location: Mombasa
obiero wrote:
Monk wrote:
sqft wrote:
I think that @amorphous (or whoever he may morph into) has raised a very important point which all investors must not ignore. And that is - can one live off investments at the NSE? To maintain a middle-class lifestyle in Nairobi you need some 300k each month. So it means that if you are lucky to get a 10% dividend (before tax) to maintain the lifestyle, you need to have an investment of KES 36m at the NSE. I don't want to bring in the issue of capital gains or capital losses. So how many wazuans have invested 36m at the NSE?

The only wazuan to have declared his portfolio at NSE is @obiero. All the other wazuans list some amorphous percentages of their holdings so one can never know the amount of their investment at the NSE.

So let's look at a typical wazuan's portfolio, in this case @obieros last known portfolio: 5500 COOP, 2000 HF, 7500 KCB, 100000 KENR, 392,100 KQ. At today's prices (3rd June 2020) COOP (12.40), HF (3.74), KCB (34.95), KNRE (2.30), KQ (1.99), his portfolio is worth about 1.35m. If a miracle happens and he gets a 10% dividend, that's 135k pa, or 11k a month before tax. So how would he survive on such an amount? Even a mama mboga makes more than that. Is the 11K worth the time and stress involved monitoring the stock market performance every day?



@sqft If I'm not mistaken, Obiero is a self-declared trader and not a dividend hunter on the NSE. His amount of investment here is not representative.

Some Wazuans here like @Stocksmaster have proved repeatedly that combining dividend investing and trading volatile stocks can earn you much more than the 10% you used as a reference.

Some Income investors too earn much higher DYs than 10%, based on their ABPs and duration of holding. Think of those who've held Safaricom from when it was ranging at Ksh 3-5, and accumulated large quantities. Today they make at least 30% annually.

Only 5% of my total investment rests at the NSE at any given time.. Sometimes it dips below 3%.. I would never invest more than the said percentage as stock trading carries possibility of sudden total loss at worst or severe erosion of capital at best, but during good times you can also make a killing. I am a trader through and through for the capital gains. The dividends I drink with @maka


@obiero you drink na unasema umeokoka?:
John 5:17 But Jesus replied, “My Father is always working, and so am I.”
sqft
#72 Posted : Thursday, June 04, 2020 10:00:16 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/10/2015
Posts: 493
Location: Kenya
obiero wrote:
Monk wrote:
sqft wrote:
I think that @amorphous (or whoever he may morph into) has raised a very important point which all investors must not ignore. And that is - can one live off investments at the NSE? To maintain a middle-class lifestyle in Nairobi you need some 300k each month. So it means that if you are lucky to get a 10% dividend (before tax) to maintain the lifestyle, you need to have an investment of KES 36m at the NSE. I don't want to bring in the issue of capital gains or capital losses. So how many wazuans have invested 36m at the NSE?

The only wazuan to have declared his portfolio at NSE is @obiero. All the other wazuans list some amorphous percentages of their holdings so one can never know the amount of their investment at the NSE.

So let's look at a typical wazuan's portfolio, in this case @obieros last known portfolio: 5500 COOP, 2000 HF, 7500 KCB, 100000 KENR, 392,100 KQ. At today's prices (3rd June 2020) COOP (12.40), HF (3.74), KCB (34.95), KNRE (2.30), KQ (1.99), his portfolio is worth about 1.35m. If a miracle happens and he gets a 10% dividend, that's 135k pa, or 11k a month before tax. So how would he survive on such an amount? Even a mama mboga makes more than that. Is the 11K worth the time and stress involved monitoring the stock market performance every day?



@sqft If I'm not mistaken, Obiero is a self-declared trader and not a dividend hunter on the NSE. His amount of investment here is not representative.

Some Wazuans here like @Stocksmaster have proved repeatedly that combining dividend investing and trading volatile stocks can earn you much more than the 10% you used as a reference.

Some Income investors too earn much higher DYs than 10%, based on their ABPs and duration of holding. Think of those who've held Safaricom from when it was ranging at Ksh 3-5, and accumulated large quantities. Today they make at least 30% annually.

Only 5% of my total investment rests at the NSE at any given time.. Sometimes it dips below 3%.. I would never invest more than the said percentage as stock trading carries possibility of sudden total loss at worst or severe erosion of capital at best, but during good times you can also make a killing. I am a trader through and through for the capital gains. The dividends I drink with @maka


Seems @mugundaman was right that the NSE is a casino.smile
What money can't do, more money can do.
obiero
#73 Posted : Thursday, June 04, 2020 10:05:17 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 12,756
Location: nairobi
Spikes wrote:
obiero wrote:
Monk wrote:
sqft wrote:
I think that @amorphous (or whoever he may morph into) has raised a very important point which all investors must not ignore. And that is - can one live off investments at the NSE? To maintain a middle-class lifestyle in Nairobi you need some 300k each month. So it means that if you are lucky to get a 10% dividend (before tax) to maintain the lifestyle, you need to have an investment of KES 36m at the NSE. I don't want to bring in the issue of capital gains or capital losses. So how many wazuans have invested 36m at the NSE?

The only wazuan to have declared his portfolio at NSE is @obiero. All the other wazuans list some amorphous percentages of their holdings so one can never know the amount of their investment at the NSE.

So let's look at a typical wazuan's portfolio, in this case @obieros last known portfolio: 5500 COOP, 2000 HF, 7500 KCB, 100000 KENR, 392,100 KQ. At today's prices (3rd June 2020) COOP (12.40), HF (3.74), KCB (34.95), KNRE (2.30), KQ (1.99), his portfolio is worth about 1.35m. If a miracle happens and he gets a 10% dividend, that's 135k pa, or 11k a month before tax. So how would he survive on such an amount? Even a mama mboga makes more than that. Is the 11K worth the time and stress involved monitoring the stock market performance every day?



@sqft If I'm not mistaken, Obiero is a self-declared trader and not a dividend hunter on the NSE. His amount of investment here is not representative.

Some Wazuans here like @Stocksmaster have proved repeatedly that combining dividend investing and trading volatile stocks can earn you much more than the 10% you used as a reference.

Some Income investors too earn much higher DYs than 10%, based on their ABPs and duration of holding. Think of those who've held Safaricom from when it was ranging at Ksh 3-5, and accumulated large quantities. Today they make at least 30% annually.

Only 5% of my total investment rests at the NSE at any given time.. Sometimes it dips below 3%.. I would never invest more than the said percentage as stock trading carries possibility of sudden total loss at worst or severe erosion of capital at best, but during good times you can also make a killing. I am a trader through and through for the capital gains. The dividends I drink with @maka


@obiero you drink na unasema umeokoka?:

Only aged whiskey.. Share the link where I said nimeokoka.. Im interested..
COOP 5,500 ABP12.6; HF 30,000 ABP 5.90; KCB 7,500 ABP 36; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92
obiero
#74 Posted : Thursday, June 04, 2020 10:07:08 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 12,756
Location: nairobi
sqft wrote:
obiero wrote:
Monk wrote:
sqft wrote:
I think that @amorphous (or whoever he may morph into) has raised a very important point which all investors must not ignore. And that is - can one live off investments at the NSE? To maintain a middle-class lifestyle in Nairobi you need some 300k each month. So it means that if you are lucky to get a 10% dividend (before tax) to maintain the lifestyle, you need to have an investment of KES 36m at the NSE. I don't want to bring in the issue of capital gains or capital losses. So how many wazuans have invested 36m at the NSE?

The only wazuan to have declared his portfolio at NSE is @obiero. All the other wazuans list some amorphous percentages of their holdings so one can never know the amount of their investment at the NSE.

So let's look at a typical wazuan's portfolio, in this case @obieros last known portfolio: 5500 COOP, 2000 HF, 7500 KCB, 100000 KENR, 392,100 KQ. At today's prices (3rd June 2020) COOP (12.40), HF (3.74), KCB (34.95), KNRE (2.30), KQ (1.99), his portfolio is worth about 1.35m. If a miracle happens and he gets a 10% dividend, that's 135k pa, or 11k a month before tax. So how would he survive on such an amount? Even a mama mboga makes more than that. Is the 11K worth the time and stress involved monitoring the stock market performance every day?



@sqft If I'm not mistaken, Obiero is a self-declared trader and not a dividend hunter on the NSE. His amount of investment here is not representative.

Some Wazuans here like @Stocksmaster have proved repeatedly that combining dividend investing and trading volatile stocks can earn you much more than the 10% you used as a reference.

Some Income investors too earn much higher DYs than 10%, based on their ABPs and duration of holding. Think of those who've held Safaricom from when it was ranging at Ksh 3-5, and accumulated large quantities. Today they make at least 30% annually.

Only 5% of my total investment rests at the NSE at any given time.. Sometimes it dips below 3%.. I would never invest more than the said percentage as stock trading carries possibility of sudden total loss at worst or severe erosion of capital at best, but during good times you can also make a killing. I am a trader through and through for the capital gains. The dividends I drink with @maka


Seems @mugundaman was right that the NSE is a casino.smile

Nothing can be more false..
COOP 5,500 ABP12.6; HF 30,000 ABP 5.90; KCB 7,500 ABP 36; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92
Wakanyugi
#75 Posted : Thursday, June 04, 2020 10:07:09 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,623
While I don't deny that one can make a decent income investing in the NSE, I think it takes special talent to do so. I am a good example of this. When I joined Wazua (or SK as it was called then) I had big ideas about creating a balanced portfolio that would earn me 300K per month, which is what I estimated would guarantee me a comfortable retirement one day.

I was an attentive observer of many of the investors here. However it took me a very short time to realise that investing required at least two sets of talent, which I did not have: attention to pattern, for momentum investing and attention to detail, for value investing. And patience.

After making many mistakes and losing quite a bit on the NSE, I had to admit I was simply not good at this game and I should try something that I could at least partially understand. I moved my attention to real estate investing. Despite its problems, and there are many, real estate is something straight forward and I have made some progress, to the point where I am gradually approaching that 300K monthly income that I initially envisioned. It has taken me 10 years and a base of about 30M in (mostly borrowed) capital invested (so that 10% yield is not too far off).

Could I have made better returns investing that 30M in the stock market? Maybe, but for me, it would have taken luck or market manipulation and I am not sure either is a good strategy. In any case I didn't have that 30M to start with and if there is one lesson I have learned from Wazua it is this: don't invest in the stock market using borrowed funds.

As for the NSE, I now use it like a bank account. I buy shares expecting to sell them when I need the money (whether they are up or down) but hoping to get a better return than from a fixed deposit.
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Angelica _ann
#76 Posted : Thursday, June 04, 2020 10:11:56 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/7/2012
Posts: 11,596
With time you learn alot as pertains all investments (which includes NSE). We have moved from going to a brokers office and being told to buy 'whatever'Laughing out loudly , to buying/selling recommendations done by others to currently doing your own research and making your own decisions.

At a point, i was holding 23 different shares in all sectors including PAKA mwenyewe!!!! but this has been trimmed down to 3 long term (BAT, Stanchart and ABSA (starting to exit this one because of recent changes) and 3 entry and exit positions (Equity, KCB and Kenya Re//Safaricom). (I have a substantial holding of Coop Bank which i got as a labourer inside priced at less than 1 bob smile smile smile which i forgot about/don't even count them as investment_including the bonus issues which have made them X1.6 //).

Nowadays am very strong on what i do that am not easily swayed by herd mentality. I bank on volumes with certainty than running around chasing a share - we did lots of that during Kibaki era. I would rather an opportunity passes me if i didn't research on it.

Another thing is that i exit when my target is reached, at least partially, regardless of the market sentiments.

Of course once in a while the devil comes in and brings temptations and you burn to recognition - ARM smile . I swore that was the last.

Lastly i don't watch my shares every day but then again i dont go to sleep_ keep update with information and general happening. However, i undertake periodic reviews of positions.

People also hold other forms of investment, sio NSE pekee, including tuplots Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly but we don't shout about it.
In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
sparkly
#77 Posted : Thursday, June 04, 2020 10:22:06 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 7,795
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
Angelica _ann wrote:
With time you learn alot as pertains all investments (which includes NSE). We have moved from going to a brokers office and being told to buy 'whatever'Laughing out loudly , to buying/selling recommendations done by others to currently doing your own research and making your own decisions.

At a point, i was holding 23 different shares in all sectors including PAKA mwenyewe!!!! but this has been trimmed down to 3 long term (BAT, Stanchart and ABSA (starting to exit this one because of recent changes) and 3 entry and exit positions (Equity, KCB and Kenya Re//Safaricom). (I have a substantial holding of Coop Bank which i got as a labourer inside priced at less than 1 bob smile smile smile which i forgot about/don't even count them as investment_including the bonus issues which have made them X1.6 //).

Nowadays am very strong on what i do that am not easily swayed by herd mentality. I bank on volumes with certainty than running around chasing a share - we did lots of that during Kibaki era. I would rather an opportunity passes me if i didn't research on it.

Another thing is that i exit when my target is reached, at least partially, regardless of the market sentiments.

Of course once in a while the devil comes in and brings temptations and you burn to recognition - ARM smile . I swore that was the last.

Lastly i don't watch my shares every day but then again i dont go to sleep_ keep update with information and general happening. However, i undertake periodic reviews of positions.

People also hold other forms of investment, sio NSE pekee, including tuplots Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly but we don't shout about it.


My approach is similar though i combine with technical analysis to gauge entry/ exit levels.

Life is short. Live passionately.
VituVingiSana
#78 Posted : Thursday, June 04, 2020 10:24:30 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 17,078
Location: Nairobi
@wakanyugi - There is a book by Malcolm Gladwell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_(book) worth reading which I believe explains your experience.

Leveraging can provide outsized returns but also huge losses. https://www.cnbc.com/201...erage-is-the-worst.html

@AA - Our experiences are similar!
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
obiero
#79 Posted : Thursday, June 04, 2020 10:46:54 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 12,756
Location: nairobi
Angelica _ann wrote:
With time you learn alot as pertains all investments (which includes NSE). We have moved from going to a brokers office and being told to buy 'whatever'Laughing out loudly , to buying/selling recommendations done by others to currently doing your own research and making your own decisions.

At a point, i was holding 23 different shares in all sectors including PAKA mwenyewe!!!! but this has been trimmed down to 3 long term (BAT, Stanchart and ABSA (starting to exit this one because of recent changes) and 3 entry and exit positions (Equity, KCB and Kenya Re//Safaricom). (I have a substantial holding of Coop Bank which i got as a labourer inside priced at less than 1 bob smile smile smile which i forgot about/don't even count them as investment_including the bonus issues which have made them X1.6 //).

Nowadays am very strong on what i do that am not easily swayed by herd mentality. I bank on volumes with certainty than running around chasing a share - we did lots of that during Kibaki era. I would rather an opportunity passes me if i didn't research on it.

Another thing is that i exit when my target is reached, at least partially, regardless of the market sentiments.

Of course once in a while the devil comes in and brings temptations and you burn to recognition - ARM smile . I swore that was the last.

Lastly i don't watch my shares every day but then again i dont go to sleep_ keep update with information and general happening. However, i undertake periodic reviews of positions.

People also hold other forms of investment, sio NSE pekee, including tuplots Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly but we don't shout about it.

This is good. But an undeveloped plot in Kathumaini isn't really a solid investment.. Best bet on real estate is in suburban areas
COOP 5,500 ABP12.6; HF 30,000 ABP 5.90; KCB 7,500 ABP 36; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92
sqft
#80 Posted : Thursday, June 04, 2020 11:02:25 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/10/2015
Posts: 493
Location: Kenya
Wakanyugi wrote:
While I don't deny that one can make a decent income investing in the NSE, I think it takes special talent to do so. I am a good example of this. When I joined Wazua (or SK as it was called then) I had big ideas about creating a balanced portfolio that would earn me 300K per month, which is what I estimated would guarantee me a comfortable retirement one day.

I was an attentive observer of many of the investors here. However it took me a very short time to realise that investing required at least two sets of talent, which I did not have: attention to pattern, for momentum investing and attention to detail, for value investing. And patience.

After making many mistakes and losing quite a bit on the NSE, I had to admit I was simply not good at this game and I should try something that I could at least partially understand. I moved my attention to real estate investing. Despite its problems, and there are many, real estate is something straight forward and I have made some progress, to the point where I am gradually approaching that 300K monthly income that I initially envisioned. It has taken me 10 years and a base of about 30M in (mostly borrowed) capital invested (so that 10% yield is not too far off).

Could I have made better returns investing that 30M in the stock market? Maybe, but for me, it would have taken luck or market manipulation and I am not sure either is a good strategy. In any case I didn't have that 30M to start with and if there is one lesson I have learned from Wazua it is this: don't invest in the stock market using borrowed funds.

As for the NSE, I now use it like a bank account. I buy shares expecting to sell them when I need the money (whether they are up or down) but hoping to get a better return than from a fixed deposit.


I think you can't go wrong with real estate. I remember @matatamingi saying he's now retired at the coast but the house he bought in Lavington many years ago is giving him >300k per month in rental income. That is some nice pension as you soak in the sun and enjoy the breezesmile .
What money can't do, more money can do.
Users browsing this topic
Guest
6 Pages«<23456>
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Home | . .. Investor | .. . Groups | .. . SME | . . . Market | .. . Club SK | . ..... About Wazua | . .. Search | . ..Sitemap | . ..Support | . ..Disclaimer | . ..Privacy Policy | . ..Terms of Use | . .. Contact Us
Copyright © 2020 Wazua.co.ke. All Rights Reserved.