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Contemporary heroes/martyrs?
tycho
#1 Posted : Friday, May 17, 2019 12:43:37 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,484
Location: Nairobi
Edward Snowden
Chelsea Manning
Julian Assange
Israel Folau
...

How can we get to understand the dynamics and ethical questions surrounding such people?

How can we evaluate our actions correctly in our times?
Kusadikika
#2 Posted : Friday, May 17, 2019 3:34:00 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2008
Posts: 2,543
Check out: Part III: "Moral judgments on ourselves; the sense of duty" chapter 2 titled "The love of praise and of praiseworthiness; the dread of blame and of blameworthiness"

https://www.earlymodernt...sets/pdfs/smith1759.pdf

The whole book is the best exploration on the question of ethics that I have ever read.
Kusadikika
#3 Posted : Friday, May 17, 2019 3:50:28 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2008
Posts: 2,543
In the case of Israel Folau it is quite interesting that drunks, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolaters are not offended and have not come out to condemn him or rather he has not been condemned for being drunkophobic, adultophobic, liaphobic, fornicophobic, kleptophobic, atheiophobic or idolatophobic..... These guys are not even organised to create a name for their haters yet they are being insulted and persecuted every day.
masukuma
#4 Posted : Friday, May 17, 2019 4:08:58 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,198
Location: Nairobi
Kusadikika wrote:
In the case of Israel Folau it is quite interesting that drunks, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolaters are not offended and have not come out to condemn him or rather he has not been condemned for being drunkophobic, adultophobic, liaphobic, fornicophobic, kleptophobic, atheiophobic or idolatophobic..... These guys are not even organised to create a name for their haters yet they are being insulted and persecuted every day.

Quote:
drunks, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolaters

who stopped them from complaining? taking offense is not a democratic event
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Kusadikika
#5 Posted : Friday, May 17, 2019 4:20:44 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2008
Posts: 2,543
masukuma wrote:
Kusadikika wrote:
In the case of Israel Folau it is quite interesting that drunks, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolaters are not offended and have not come out to condemn him or rather he has not been condemned for being drunkophobic, adultophobic, liaphobic, fornicophobic, kleptophobic, atheiophobic or idolatophobic..... These guys are not even organised to create a name for their haters yet they are being insulted and persecuted every day.

Quote:
drunks, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolaters

who stopped them from complaining? taking offense is not a democratic event


This is how fundamentalists are created. The guy is a rugby player, he is not a politician or a state officer who creates policies. He is a christian. His christian faith is important to him. What he posted is a common christian belief. It is not even radical.

You sack a rugby player for stating a common christian principle. Any politically savvy person will tell you that is a place you do not want to go. Leave people's faith alone.
tycho
#6 Posted : Saturday, May 18, 2019 2:03:06 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,484
Location: Nairobi
Kusadikika wrote:
Check out: Part III: "Moral judgments on ourselves; the sense of duty" chapter 2 titled "The love of praise and of praiseworthiness; the dread of blame and of blameworthiness"

https://www.earlymodernt...sets/pdfs/smith1759.pdf

The whole book is the best exploration on the question of ethics that I have ever read.


Yes, Adam Smith was a great thinker and the idea of finding praise and praiseworthiness is important. In this case I wonder how such criteria applies to the sample list.

Given that in a population sample one can't fail to find sympathizers and critiques in perhaps equal share, we may need to find out who our sample members wish to please.


tycho
#7 Posted : Saturday, May 18, 2019 2:06:10 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,484
Location: Nairobi
Kusadikika wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Kusadikika wrote:
In the case of Israel Folau it is quite interesting that drunks, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolaters are not offended and have not come out to condemn him or rather he has not been condemned for being drunkophobic, adultophobic, liaphobic, fornicophobic, kleptophobic, atheiophobic or idolatophobic..... These guys are not even organised to create a name for their haters yet they are being insulted and persecuted every day.

Quote:
drunks, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolaters

who stopped them from complaining? taking offense is not a democratic event


This is how fundamentalists are created. The guy is a rugby player, he is not a politician or a state officer who creates policies. He is a christian. His christian faith is important to him. What he posted is a common christian belief. It is not even radical.

You sack a rugby player for stating a common christian principle. Any politically savvy person will tell you that is a place you do not want to go. Leave people's faith alone.


In Israel's case, can we say that the Rugby board are neutral and wish to maintain neutrality and all inclusiveness?

Why is there offence when someone says 'hell' to people who don't subscribe to the idea in the first place?
Kusadikika
#8 Posted : Thursday, June 06, 2019 2:56:24 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2008
Posts: 2,543
Lolest!
#9 Posted : Thursday, June 06, 2019 3:45:20 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 11,645
Location: Kianjokoma
Kusadikika wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Kusadikika wrote:
In the case of Israel Folau it is quite interesting that drunks, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolaters are not offended and have not come out to condemn him or rather he has not been condemned for being drunkophobic, adultophobic, liaphobic, fornicophobic, kleptophobic, atheiophobic or idolatophobic..... These guys are not even organised to create a name for their haters yet they are being insulted and persecuted every day.

Quote:
drunks, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolaters

who stopped them from complaining? taking offense is not a democratic event


This is how fundamentalists are created. The guy is a rugby player, he is not a politician or a state officer who creates policies. He is a christian. His christian faith is important to him. What he posted is a common christian belief. It is not even radical.

You sack a rugby player for stating a common christian principle. Any politically savvy person will tell you that is a place you do not want to go. Leave people's faith alone.

Applause Applause well said @kusadikika. Folau stated his belief, based on the bible! That Rugby Australia has rules against 'discrimination on sexual orientation grounds' should not mean they stop the guy from stating his belief on who will go to hell!

After all, he won't be the decision maker!

Just imagine the outcry that would be there if it were a conservative country banning a gay player
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
radiomast
#10 Posted : Thursday, June 06, 2019 4:39:48 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 257
Kusadikika wrote:
In the case of Israel Folau it is quite interesting that drunks, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolaters are not offended and have not come out to condemn him or rather he has not been condemned for being drunkophobic, adultophobic, liaphobic, fornicophobic, kleptophobic, atheiophobic or idolatophobic..... These guys are not even organised to create a name for their haters yet they are being insulted and persecuted every day.



I have seen gays beaten, jailed, killed and so forth. I have yet to see anything happen to adulterers or drunks. Please enlighten us on how these people are persecuted.

Secondly Folau is a hypocrite and I don't feel sorry for him. He has tattoos all over his chest and arms yet the Bible forbids tattoos.

Leviticus 19:28: ”You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the Lord.”

Also The Bible forbids judging others:

Mathew 7:1 : "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

And finally, The team sponsors dont want Folau back, many of Folau's team-mates dont want to play with him anymore. The wallabies coach doesn't want him. The League he used to play in (AFL) does not want him. No European team will sign him. So at this point there is no point giving him his contract back if he will create disharmony within the team.
radiomast
#11 Posted : Thursday, June 06, 2019 4:46:17 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 257
tycho wrote:
Edward Snowden
Chelsea Manning
Julian Assange
Israel Folau
...

How can we get to understand the dynamics and ethical questions surrounding such people?

How can we evaluate our actions correctly in our times?



The only worthwhile person here is Chelsea Manning.

Snowden: Caused dozens of people to lose their jobs in order to expose what everyone already new. If you don't already know that every government spies on its citizens then you are naive. Snowden accomplished nothing and may even be a russian agent.

Julian Assange: He released stuff favourable to putin and trump. How come he has never released any dirt on Russia, Israel or trump or any other right wing government?

Folau: Big loser. See my comment above.
tycho
#12 Posted : Thursday, June 06, 2019 6:22:54 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,484
Location: Nairobi
I've come to see that most times we seek heroism in matters that are not even important using such dramatic methods that in our simple mindedness we believe in such fake heroism.

Martyrdom isn't even as important as I thought previously.
radiomast
#13 Posted : Thursday, June 06, 2019 9:47:29 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 257
tycho wrote:
I've come to see that most times we seek heroism in matters that are not even important using such dramatic methods that in our simple mindedness we believe in such fake heroism.

Martyrdom isn't even as important as I thought previously.

There are many modern martyrs. Anyone killed fighting for democracy e.g. Khashoggi. Also Rouzan Najjar, the palestinian medic shot by an Israeli snipers. Also people like Chris Msando who apparently was shot because he was adamant about keeping people out of the election server. Na wengineo
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