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Plane Crash?
wukan
#621 Posted : Thursday, March 14, 2019 12:29:17 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/13/2015
Posts: 1,084
masukuma wrote:

Now Trump is an aviation expert! This is just reacting instead of responding. The very reason we have fewer accidents is because of these complicated things. Innovations drive the human race forward. It's quite ironical that a guy who communicates with his followers through twitter and the internet is talking trash about the internet. If the people who invented the phone left it just left it that you could call people - Trump would not be president! If the people who invented the internet left it as it was - Trump would never have been president. Innovation moves the world forward - sometimes there are unfortunate events (Toyota Prius brakes, Samsung Note 7 explosions, Dreamliner battery issues and now the Max 8 issues) but they will be fixed and we will move forward into a safer future.


I'm sure he was acting on a lot of intel in coming to this decision. Algos and AI have been known to go rogue. e.g. after the Air Sweden 294 crashed in 2016, investigators were able to determine that the Air Data Inertial Reference Unit, or ADIRU — a device that tells the plane how it’s moving through space — had begun to send erroneous signals. But they couldn’t figure out why.

Facebooks chatbots Bob and Alice had also invented their own language-a variation of english to communicate to each other. They had to be shut down.

It may not be a safer future if humans can't be in control or regain control.


masukuma
#622 Posted : Thursday, March 14, 2019 1:04:50 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,121
Location: Nairobi
wukan wrote:
masukuma wrote:

Now Trump is an aviation expert! This is just reacting instead of responding. The very reason we have fewer accidents is because of these complicated things. Innovations drive the human race forward. It's quite ironical that a guy who communicates with his followers through twitter and the internet is talking trash about the internet. If the people who invented the phone left it just left it that you could call people - Trump would not be president! If the people who invented the internet left it as it was - Trump would never have been president. Innovation moves the world forward - sometimes there are unfortunate events (Toyota Prius brakes, Samsung Note 7 explosions, Dreamliner battery issues and now the Max 8 issues) but they will be fixed and we will move forward into a safer future.


I'm sure he was acting on a lot of intel in coming to this decision. Algos and AI have been known to go rogue. e.g. after the Air Sweden 294 crashed in 2016, investigators were able to determine that the Air Data Inertial Reference Unit, or ADIRU — a device that tells the plane how it’s moving through space — had begun to send erroneous signals. But they couldn’t figure out why.

Facebooks chatbots Bob and Alice had also invented their own language-a variation of english to communicate to each other. They had to be shut down.

It may not be a safer future if humans can't be in control or regain control.




Why do you automatically assume that he was acting out of intel and not a knee jerk reaction? What in his history made you think this? Algorithms are not new... AI is not new. What you consider going 'rogue' is technically known as a bug or a glitch. Something that works in a way other than how the manufacturer intended it to work in certain conditions. how many flights a day do these planes make?
So in 2017 airlines carried 4.1 BILLION passengers from and to 20,000 city pairs.
Number of KMs flown in 2017?
1. American Airlines (324 billion)
2. Delta Air Lines (316.3 billion)
3. United Airlines (311 billion)
4. Emirates Airline (289 billion)
5. Southwest Airlines (207.7 billion)
How many aircraft in the air at peaktime? 5000! These are the conditions. It's important that we stop being lazy and use blanket statements for things we cannot explain. This is what has gotten us here! it's ok to say you don't know why a certain phenomenon is occurring and you will investigate and it's also fine to say that even after investigations are done - you don't know why. Other people will come after you. But if you create an answer... AI going rogue... Algorithms messing us up - you create a mind block by an answer you cannot prove. When people used to die of diseases people assigned them explanations - demons, God's curse e.t.c. This did not help in curing the disease. only when people came up with scientific explanations WHY certain phenomenon took place - did we find solutions.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
hardwood
#623 Posted : Thursday, March 14, 2019 1:10:57 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/28/2015
Posts: 8,654
Even US pilots have complained in the past about the erratic response of the plane. If the 787s were grounded due to overheating batteries, then a plane that suddenly goes into the nose-dive mode and one that has killed >300 people after nose diving shouldn't be flying until the problem is sorted out.

https://edition.cnn.com/...eing-737-max/index.html

Quote:
(CNN)US pilots who fly the Boeing 737 Max have registered complaints about the way the jet has performed in flight, according to a federal database accessed by CNN.

In one of the complaints, a captain reported an autopilot anomaly which led to a brief nose-down situation -- where the front of the aircraft pointed down, according to the federal database. In another complaint, a first officer reported that the aircraft pitched nose down after the autopilot was engaged during departure. The autopilot was then disconnected and flight continued to its destination, according to the database.
murchr
#624 Posted : Thursday, March 14, 2019 2:43:08 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 14,369
masukuma wrote:
wukan wrote:
masukuma wrote:

Now Trump is an aviation expert! This is just reacting instead of responding. The very reason we have fewer accidents is because of these complicated things. Innovations drive the human race forward. It's quite ironical that a guy who communicates with his followers through twitter and the internet is talking trash about the internet. If the people who invented the phone left it just left it that you could call people - Trump would not be president! If the people who invented the internet left it as it was - Trump would never have been president. Innovation moves the world forward - sometimes there are unfortunate events (Toyota Prius brakes, Samsung Note 7 explosions, Dreamliner battery issues and now the Max 8 issues) but they will be fixed and we will move forward into a safer future.


I'm sure he was acting on a lot of intel in coming to this decision. Algos and AI have been known to go rogue. e.g. after the Air Sweden 294 crashed in 2016, investigators were able to determine that the Air Data Inertial Reference Unit, or ADIRU — a device that tells the plane how it’s moving through space — had begun to send erroneous signals. But they couldn’t figure out why.

Facebooks chatbots Bob and Alice had also invented their own language-a variation of english to communicate to each other. They had to be shut down.

It may not be a safer future if humans can't be in control or regain control.




Why do you automatically assume that he was acting out of intel and not a knee jerk reaction? What in his history made you think this? Algorithms are not new... AI is not new. What you consider going 'rogue' is technically known as a bug or a glitch. Something that works in a way other than how the manufacturer intended it to work in certain conditions. how many flights a day do these planes make?
So in 2017 airlines carried 4.1 BILLION passengers from and to 20,000 city pairs.
Number of KMs flown in 2017?
1. American Airlines (324 billion)
2. Delta Air Lines (316.3 billion)
3. United Airlines (311 billion)
4. Emirates Airline (289 billion)
5. Southwest Airlines (207.7 billion)
How many aircraft in the air at peaktime? 5000! These are the conditions. It's important that we stop being lazy and use blanket statements for things we cannot explain. This is what has gotten us here! it's ok to say you don't know why a certain phenomenon is occurring and you will investigate and it's also fine to say that even after investigations are done - you don't know why. Other people will come after you. But if you create an answer... AI going rogue... Algorithms messing us up - you create a mind block by an answer you cannot prove. When people used to die of diseases people assigned them explanations - demons, God's curse e.t.c. This did not help in curing the disease. only when people came up with scientific explanations WHY certain phenomenon took place - did we find solutions.


There's fresh satellite data which the European agency got access to. Even Americans pilots have been sending anonymous logs detailing the nose dive thing, plus Boeing was to send patches to fix the issue. I think Trump was right in this, you don't gamble with human life for profit and reputation.

Apparently, Boeing had given US pilots fresh training, did they do that to the rest?
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
masukuma
#625 Posted : Friday, March 15, 2019 10:48:19 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,121
Location: Nairobi
murchr wrote:
masukuma wrote:
wukan wrote:
masukuma wrote:

Now Trump is an aviation expert! This is just reacting instead of responding. The very reason we have fewer accidents is because of these complicated things. Innovations drive the human race forward. It's quite ironical that a guy who communicates with his followers through twitter and the internet is talking trash about the internet. If the people who invented the phone left it just left it that you could call people - Trump would not be president! If the people who invented the internet left it as it was - Trump would never have been president. Innovation moves the world forward - sometimes there are unfortunate events (Toyota Prius brakes, Samsung Note 7 explosions, Dreamliner battery issues and now the Max 8 issues) but they will be fixed and we will move forward into a safer future.


I'm sure he was acting on a lot of intel in coming to this decision. Algos and AI have been known to go rogue. e.g. after the Air Sweden 294 crashed in 2016, investigators were able to determine that the Air Data Inertial Reference Unit, or ADIRU — a device that tells the plane how it’s moving through space — had begun to send erroneous signals. But they couldn’t figure out why.

Facebooks chatbots Bob and Alice had also invented their own language-a variation of english to communicate to each other. They had to be shut down.

It may not be a safer future if humans can't be in control or regain control.




Why do you automatically assume that he was acting out of intel and not a knee jerk reaction? What in his history made you think this? Algorithms are not new... AI is not new. What you consider going 'rogue' is technically known as a bug or a glitch. Something that works in a way other than how the manufacturer intended it to work in certain conditions. how many flights a day do these planes make?
So in 2017 airlines carried 4.1 BILLION passengers from and to 20,000 city pairs.
Number of KMs flown in 2017?
1. American Airlines (324 billion)
2. Delta Air Lines (316.3 billion)
3. United Airlines (311 billion)
4. Emirates Airline (289 billion)
5. Southwest Airlines (207.7 billion)
How many aircraft in the air at peaktime? 5000! These are the conditions. It's important that we stop being lazy and use blanket statements for things we cannot explain. This is what has gotten us here! it's ok to say you don't know why a certain phenomenon is occurring and you will investigate and it's also fine to say that even after investigations are done - you don't know why. Other people will come after you. But if you create an answer... AI going rogue... Algorithms messing us up - you create a mind block by an answer you cannot prove. When people used to die of diseases people assigned them explanations - demons, God's curse e.t.c. This did not help in curing the disease. only when people came up with scientific explanations WHY certain phenomenon took place - did we find solutions.


There's fresh satellite data which the European agency got access to. Even Americans pilots have been sending anonymous logs detailing the nose dive thing, plus Boeing was to send patches to fix the issue. I think Trump was right in this, you don't gamble with human life for profit and reputation.

Apparently, Boeing had given US pilots fresh training, did they do that to the rest?


There was no training rolled out to the rest but I also read that the government shutdown May have delayed the rollout of the software.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Kusadikika
#626 Posted : Friday, March 15, 2019 3:57:02 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2008
Posts: 2,356
masukuma wrote:
murchr wrote:
masukuma wrote:
wukan wrote:
masukuma wrote:

Now Trump is an aviation expert! This is just reacting instead of responding. The very reason we have fewer accidents is because of these complicated things. Innovations drive the human race forward. It's quite ironical that a guy who communicates with his followers through twitter and the internet is talking trash about the internet. If the people who invented the phone left it just left it that you could call people - Trump would not be president! If the people who invented the internet left it as it was - Trump would never have been president. Innovation moves the world forward - sometimes there are unfortunate events (Toyota Prius brakes, Samsung Note 7 explosions, Dreamliner battery issues and now the Max 8 issues) but they will be fixed and we will move forward into a safer future.


I'm sure he was acting on a lot of intel in coming to this decision. Algos and AI have been known to go rogue. e.g. after the Air Sweden 294 crashed in 2016, investigators were able to determine that the Air Data Inertial Reference Unit, or ADIRU — a device that tells the plane how it’s moving through space — had begun to send erroneous signals. But they couldn’t figure out why.

Facebooks chatbots Bob and Alice had also invented their own language-a variation of english to communicate to each other. They had to be shut down.

It may not be a safer future if humans can't be in control or regain control.




Why do you automatically assume that he was acting out of intel and not a knee jerk reaction? What in his history made you think this? Algorithms are not new... AI is not new. What you consider going 'rogue' is technically known as a bug or a glitch. Something that works in a way other than how the manufacturer intended it to work in certain conditions. how many flights a day do these planes make?
So in 2017 airlines carried 4.1 BILLION passengers from and to 20,000 city pairs.
Number of KMs flown in 2017?
1. American Airlines (324 billion)
2. Delta Air Lines (316.3 billion)
3. United Airlines (311 billion)
4. Emirates Airline (289 billion)
5. Southwest Airlines (207.7 billion)
How many aircraft in the air at peaktime? 5000! These are the conditions. It's important that we stop being lazy and use blanket statements for things we cannot explain. This is what has gotten us here! it's ok to say you don't know why a certain phenomenon is occurring and you will investigate and it's also fine to say that even after investigations are done - you don't know why. Other people will come after you. But if you create an answer... AI going rogue... Algorithms messing us up - you create a mind block by an answer you cannot prove. When people used to die of diseases people assigned them explanations - demons, God's curse e.t.c. This did not help in curing the disease. only when people came up with scientific explanations WHY certain phenomenon took place - did we find solutions.


There's fresh satellite data which the European agency got access to. Even Americans pilots have been sending anonymous logs detailing the nose dive thing, plus Boeing was to send patches to fix the issue. I think Trump was right in this, you don't gamble with human life for profit and reputation.

Apparently, Boeing had given US pilots fresh training, did they do that to the rest?


There was no training rolled out to the rest but I also read that the government shutdown May have delayed the rollout of the software.


@Masukuma, there is something to be said about over reliance on technology that is becoming more and more common in many industries. I have no experience about the aviation industry but I am familiar with it in another industry.

Technology has inserted itself between experts and their tools in the name of making it easier for the expert but has inadvertently led to the unintended consequence of making expertise less relevant. I will give you an example.

In the medical industry it is possible for you to go to a high end hospital and find all the personnel who have the training to take care of a problem you may have, let us say a broken leg and yet find that they can't help you.

The doctor will be there and he will look at you and say that he needs an xray. However, the hospital systems are linked in such a way that he can only requisition the xray through the computer system. If for some reason there is a network problem so that he cannot enter the details in, he and the patient are stuck.

The Xray technician knows how to operate the Xray machine but not the software that runs it. The systems are designed to only accept to take an xray that has been requisitioned through the system.

Sometimes it is even more frustrating than that. The physical machines may be working perfectly well but the computer system that runs it is faulty and the only way to get it fixed is to call a guy in Bangalore India.

IT systems have become the middlemen in most industries. They are experts of the system not experts at solving real world problems yet they are a constant irritation to those trained to solve real world problems.

In the Medical example above before everything was linked every expert was also a lowtech expert of his tools. A doctor could get another pen to write his prescription if the one he was using was not working.... and even if he did not have a pen and paper he could walk with the patient down the hall to the xray room and tell the technician verbally what he wanted. The technician knew how to operate his xray machine and troubleshoot whatever problems it had there and then without having to go through a middleman computer systems expert.

This thing has become so pervasive so that the lines of expertise are becoming blurred. There are surgeons now who have become experts at doing operations but only using million dollar machines so that if he did not have the million dollar machine he would not be an expert at anything.

https://www.healthline.c...ion-or-ripoff-021215#11
murchr
#627 Posted : Monday, March 18, 2019 5:39:01 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 14,369
Look at that vertical acceleration...I guess its the same way it nose dived

"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
wukan
#628 Posted : Wednesday, April 03, 2019 3:26:26 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/13/2015
Posts: 1,084
Crazy stuff from this AI...Sad Sad

Quote:
MCAS was reengaged four times as pilots scrambled to right the plane, and investigators were looking into the possibility that the software might have reengaged without prompting from the pilots
radiomast
#629 Posted : Thursday, April 04, 2019 12:37:40 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 211
murchr
#630 Posted : Friday, April 05, 2019 5:59:42 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 14,369
murchr wrote:
Look at that vertical acceleration...I guess its the same way it nose dived



So it actually went vertical as demonstrated, i can imagine the horror with the passengers
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
masukuma
#631 Posted : Friday, April 05, 2019 7:49:57 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,121
Location: Nairobi
murchr wrote:
murchr wrote:
Look at that vertical acceleration...I guess its the same way it nose dived



So it actually went vertical as demonstrated, i can imagine the horror with the passengers

there are some places where quick accent was key (Kabul and Baghdad) - I am not saying it's this steep but Planes used to take off and assent rapidly...
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
masukuma
#632 Posted : Friday, April 05, 2019 8:02:09 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,121
Location: Nairobi
Kusadikika wrote:
masukuma wrote:
murchr wrote:
masukuma wrote:
wukan wrote:
masukuma wrote:

Now Trump is an aviation expert! This is just reacting instead of responding. The very reason we have fewer accidents is because of these complicated things. Innovations drive the human race forward. It's quite ironical that a guy who communicates with his followers through twitter and the internet is talking trash about the internet. If the people who invented the phone left it just left it that you could call people - Trump would not be president! If the people who invented the internet left it as it was - Trump would never have been president. Innovation moves the world forward - sometimes there are unfortunate events (Toyota Prius brakes, Samsung Note 7 explosions, Dreamliner battery issues and now the Max 8 issues) but they will be fixed and we will move forward into a safer future.


I'm sure he was acting on a lot of intel in coming to this decision. Algos and AI have been known to go rogue. e.g. after the Air Sweden 294 crashed in 2016, investigators were able to determine that the Air Data Inertial Reference Unit, or ADIRU — a device that tells the plane how it’s moving through space — had begun to send erroneous signals. But they couldn’t figure out why.

Facebooks chatbots Bob and Alice had also invented their own language-a variation of english to communicate to each other. They had to be shut down.

It may not be a safer future if humans can't be in control or regain control.




Why do you automatically assume that he was acting out of intel and not a knee jerk reaction? What in his history made you think this? Algorithms are not new... AI is not new. What you consider going 'rogue' is technically known as a bug or a glitch. Something that works in a way other than how the manufacturer intended it to work in certain conditions. how many flights a day do these planes make?
So in 2017 airlines carried 4.1 BILLION passengers from and to 20,000 city pairs.
Number of KMs flown in 2017?
1. American Airlines (324 billion)
2. Delta Air Lines (316.3 billion)
3. United Airlines (311 billion)
4. Emirates Airline (289 billion)
5. Southwest Airlines (207.7 billion)
How many aircraft in the air at peaktime? 5000! These are the conditions. It's important that we stop being lazy and use blanket statements for things we cannot explain. This is what has gotten us here! it's ok to say you don't know why a certain phenomenon is occurring and you will investigate and it's also fine to say that even after investigations are done - you don't know why. Other people will come after you. But if you create an answer... AI going rogue... Algorithms messing us up - you create a mind block by an answer you cannot prove. When people used to die of diseases people assigned them explanations - demons, God's curse e.t.c. This did not help in curing the disease. only when people came up with scientific explanations WHY certain phenomenon took place - did we find solutions.


There's fresh satellite data which the European agency got access to. Even Americans pilots have been sending anonymous logs detailing the nose dive thing, plus Boeing was to send patches to fix the issue. I think Trump was right in this, you don't gamble with human life for profit and reputation.

Apparently, Boeing had given US pilots fresh training, did they do that to the rest?


There was no training rolled out to the rest but I also read that the government shutdown May have delayed the rollout of the software.


@Masukuma, there is something to be said about over reliance on technology that is becoming more and more common in many industries. I have no experience about the aviation industry but I am familiar with it in another industry.

Technology has inserted itself between experts and their tools in the name of making it easier for the expert but has inadvertently led to the unintended consequence of making expertise less relevant. I will give you an example.

In the medical industry it is possible for you to go to a high end hospital and find all the personnel who have the training to take care of a problem you may have, let us say a broken leg and yet find that they can't help you.

The doctor will be there and he will look at you and say that he needs an xray. However, the hospital systems are linked in such a way that he can only requisition the xray through the computer system. If for some reason there is a network problem so that he cannot enter the details in, he and the patient are stuck.

The Xray technician knows how to operate the Xray machine but not the software that runs it. The systems are designed to only accept to take an xray that has been requisitioned through the system.

Sometimes it is even more frustrating than that. The physical machines may be working perfectly well but the computer system that runs it is faulty and the only way to get it fixed is to call a guy in Bangalore India.

IT systems have become the middlemen in most industries. They are experts of the system not experts at solving real world problems yet they are a constant irritation to those trained to solve real world problems.

In the Medical example above before everything was linked every expert was also a lowtech expert of his tools. A doctor could get another pen to write his prescription if the one he was using was not working.... and even if he did not have a pen and paper he could walk with the patient down the hall to the xray room and tell the technician verbally what he wanted. The technician knew how to operate his xray machine and troubleshoot whatever problems it had there and then without having to go through a middleman computer systems expert.

This thing has become so pervasive so that the lines of expertise are becoming blurred. There are surgeons now who have become experts at doing operations but only using million dollar machines so that if he did not have the million dollar machine he would not be an expert at anything.

https://www.healthline.c...ion-or-ripoff-021215#11


Yes... but patient care in such environments is MUCH better than the traditional doctor with a stethoscope and a pen. Sure - technology can be annoying sometime but lets face it People die less in these health facilities compared to the old way of doing things. the outcome is not 100% but it's better. It's like self driving cars - they are continually being improved. Those cars are way better statistically than human driven vehicles. of course you "feel" safer in human driven vehicle on the tarmac... well statistically that's the most unsafe place you can be. but there is no reasoning with feelings... feelings have been wired to keep us alive and they are just heuristics. Flying... not a human thing... our heuristics will fire off everytime we fly. I happened to fly from JKIA on the same day the Ethiopian Flight crashed... it wasn't easy... I normally don't care what type of plane I fly in but over that trip... my heuristics were firing! regardless of my knowledge of statistics
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
murchr
#633 Posted : Friday, April 05, 2019 8:16:25 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 14,369
masukuma wrote:
murchr wrote:
murchr wrote:
Look at that vertical acceleration...I guess its the same way it nose dived



So it actually went vertical as demonstrated, i can imagine the horror with the passengers


there are some places where quick accent was key (Kabul and Baghdad) - I am not saying it's this steep but Planes used to take off and assent rapidly...


I imagine fighter jets do that but passanger planes? d'oh!
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
masukuma
#634 Posted : Friday, April 05, 2019 9:14:44 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,121
Location: Nairobi
murchr wrote:
masukuma wrote:
murchr wrote:
murchr wrote:
Look at that vertical acceleration...I guess its the same way it nose dived



So it actually went vertical as demonstrated, i can imagine the horror with the passengers


there are some places where quick accent was key (Kabul and Baghdad) - I am not saying it's this steep but Planes used to take off and assent rapidly...


I imagine fighter jets do that but passanger planes? d'oh!

Not this steep a climb but yes... steeper climbs than most conventional flights... remember there are people down there who would be happy to down a plane.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Angelica _ann
#635 Posted : Friday, April 05, 2019 9:50:31 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/7/2012
Posts: 10,334
masukuma wrote:
murchr wrote:
masukuma wrote:
murchr wrote:
murchr wrote:
Look at that vertical acceleration...I guess its the same way it nose dived



So it actually went vertical as demonstrated, i can imagine the horror with the passengers


there are some places where quick accent was key (Kabul and Baghdad) - I am not saying it's this steep but Planes used to take off and assent rapidly...


I imagine fighter jets do that but passanger planes? d'oh!

Not this steep a climb but yes... steeper climbs than most conventional flights... remember there are people down there who would be happy to down a plane.


This happens even in Sanaa,Yemen.
In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
masukuma
#636 Posted : Friday, April 05, 2019 10:08:10 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,121
Location: Nairobi
masukuma wrote:
Kusadikika wrote:
masukuma wrote:
murchr wrote:
masukuma wrote:
wukan wrote:
masukuma wrote:

Now Trump is an aviation expert! This is just reacting instead of responding. The very reason we have fewer accidents is because of these complicated things. Innovations drive the human race forward. It's quite ironical that a guy who communicates with his followers through twitter and the internet is talking trash about the internet. If the people who invented the phone left it just left it that you could call people - Trump would not be president! If the people who invented the internet left it as it was - Trump would never have been president. Innovation moves the world forward - sometimes there are unfortunate events (Toyota Prius brakes, Samsung Note 7 explosions, Dreamliner battery issues and now the Max 8 issues) but they will be fixed and we will move forward into a safer future.


I'm sure he was acting on a lot of intel in coming to this decision. Algos and AI have been known to go rogue. e.g. after the Air Sweden 294 crashed in 2016, investigators were able to determine that the Air Data Inertial Reference Unit, or ADIRU — a device that tells the plane how it’s moving through space — had begun to send erroneous signals. But they couldn’t figure out why.

Facebooks chatbots Bob and Alice had also invented their own language-a variation of english to communicate to each other. They had to be shut down.

It may not be a safer future if humans can't be in control or regain control.




Why do you automatically assume that he was acting out of intel and not a knee jerk reaction? What in his history made you think this? Algorithms are not new... AI is not new. What you consider going 'rogue' is technically known as a bug or a glitch. Something that works in a way other than how the manufacturer intended it to work in certain conditions. how many flights a day do these planes make?
So in 2017 airlines carried 4.1 BILLION passengers from and to 20,000 city pairs.
Number of KMs flown in 2017?
1. American Airlines (324 billion)
2. Delta Air Lines (316.3 billion)
3. United Airlines (311 billion)
4. Emirates Airline (289 billion)
5. Southwest Airlines (207.7 billion)
How many aircraft in the air at peaktime? 5000! These are the conditions. It's important that we stop being lazy and use blanket statements for things we cannot explain. This is what has gotten us here! it's ok to say you don't know why a certain phenomenon is occurring and you will investigate and it's also fine to say that even after investigations are done - you don't know why. Other people will come after you. But if you create an answer... AI going rogue... Algorithms messing us up - you create a mind block by an answer you cannot prove. When people used to die of diseases people assigned them explanations - demons, God's curse e.t.c. This did not help in curing the disease. only when people came up with scientific explanations WHY certain phenomenon took place - did we find solutions.


There's fresh satellite data which the European agency got access to. Even Americans pilots have been sending anonymous logs detailing the nose dive thing, plus Boeing was to send patches to fix the issue. I think Trump was right in this, you don't gamble with human life for profit and reputation.

Apparently, Boeing had given US pilots fresh training, did they do that to the rest?


There was no training rolled out to the rest but I also read that the government shutdown May have delayed the rollout of the software.


@Masukuma, there is something to be said about over reliance on technology that is becoming more and more common in many industries. I have no experience about the aviation industry but I am familiar with it in another industry.

Technology has inserted itself between experts and their tools in the name of making it easier for the expert but has inadvertently led to the unintended consequence of making expertise less relevant. I will give you an example.

In the medical industry it is possible for you to go to a high end hospital and find all the personnel who have the training to take care of a problem you may have, let us say a broken leg and yet find that they can't help you.

The doctor will be there and he will look at you and say that he needs an xray. However, the hospital systems are linked in such a way that he can only requisition the xray through the computer system. If for some reason there is a network problem so that he cannot enter the details in, he and the patient are stuck.

The Xray technician knows how to operate the Xray machine but not the software that runs it. The systems are designed to only accept to take an xray that has been requisitioned through the system.

Sometimes it is even more frustrating than that. The physical machines may be working perfectly well but the computer system that runs it is faulty and the only way to get it fixed is to call a guy in Bangalore India.

IT systems have become the middlemen in most industries. They are experts of the system not experts at solving real world problems yet they are a constant irritation to those trained to solve real world problems.

In the Medical example above before everything was linked every expert was also a lowtech expert of his tools. A doctor could get another pen to write his prescription if the one he was using was not working.... and even if he did not have a pen and paper he could walk with the patient down the hall to the xray room and tell the technician verbally what he wanted. The technician knew how to operate his xray machine and troubleshoot whatever problems it had there and then without having to go through a middleman computer systems expert.

This thing has become so pervasive so that the lines of expertise are becoming blurred. There are surgeons now who have become experts at doing operations but only using million dollar machines so that if he did not have the million dollar machine he would not be an expert at anything.

https://www.healthline.c...ion-or-ripoff-021215#11


Yes... but patient care in such environments is MUCH better than the traditional doctor with a stethoscope and a pen. Sure - technology can be annoying sometime but lets face it People die less in these health facilities compared to the old way of doing things. the outcome is not 100% but it's better. It's like self driving cars - they are continually being improved. Those cars are way better statistically than human driven vehicles. of course you "feel" safer in human driven vehicle on the tarmac... well statistically that's the most unsafe place you can be. but there is no reasoning with feelings... feelings have been wired to keep us alive and they are just heuristics. Flying... not a human thing... our heuristics will fire off everytime we fly. I happened to fly from JKIA on the same day the Ethiopian Flight crashed... it wasn't easy... I normally don't care what type of plane I fly in but over that trip... my heuristics were firing! regardless of my knowledge of statistics


These are the feelings I am talking about

All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
harrydre
#637 Posted : Friday, April 05, 2019 12:05:58 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/10/2008
Posts: 9,007
Location: Kanjo
Finally taken responsibility. Hii maneno ya shortcuts and cost savings over safety will not be tolerated!



Kusadikika
#638 Posted : Friday, April 05, 2019 4:57:27 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2008
Posts: 2,356
masukuma wrote:
Kusadikika wrote:
masukuma wrote:
murchr wrote:
masukuma wrote:
wukan wrote:
masukuma wrote:

Now Trump is an aviation expert! This is just reacting instead of responding. The very reason we have fewer accidents is because of these complicated things. Innovations drive the human race forward. It's quite ironical that a guy who communicates with his followers through twitter and the internet is talking trash about the internet. If the people who invented the phone left it just left it that you could call people - Trump would not be president! If the people who invented the internet left it as it was - Trump would never have been president. Innovation moves the world forward - sometimes there are unfortunate events (Toyota Prius brakes, Samsung Note 7 explosions, Dreamliner battery issues and now the Max 8 issues) but they will be fixed and we will move forward into a safer future.


I'm sure he was acting on a lot of intel in coming to this decision. Algos and AI have been known to go rogue. e.g. after the Air Sweden 294 crashed in 2016, investigators were able to determine that the Air Data Inertial Reference Unit, or ADIRU — a device that tells the plane how it’s moving through space — had begun to send erroneous signals. But they couldn’t figure out why.

Facebooks chatbots Bob and Alice had also invented their own language-a variation of english to communicate to each other. They had to be shut down.

It may not be a safer future if humans can't be in control or regain control.




Why do you automatically assume that he was acting out of intel and not a knee jerk reaction? What in his history made you think this? Algorithms are not new... AI is not new. What you consider going 'rogue' is technically known as a bug or a glitch. Something that works in a way other than how the manufacturer intended it to work in certain conditions. how many flights a day do these planes make?
So in 2017 airlines carried 4.1 BILLION passengers from and to 20,000 city pairs.
Number of KMs flown in 2017?
1. American Airlines (324 billion)
2. Delta Air Lines (316.3 billion)
3. United Airlines (311 billion)
4. Emirates Airline (289 billion)
5. Southwest Airlines (207.7 billion)
How many aircraft in the air at peaktime? 5000! These are the conditions. It's important that we stop being lazy and use blanket statements for things we cannot explain. This is what has gotten us here! it's ok to say you don't know why a certain phenomenon is occurring and you will investigate and it's also fine to say that even after investigations are done - you don't know why. Other people will come after you. But if you create an answer... AI going rogue... Algorithms messing us up - you create a mind block by an answer you cannot prove. When people used to die of diseases people assigned them explanations - demons, God's curse e.t.c. This did not help in curing the disease. only when people came up with scientific explanations WHY certain phenomenon took place - did we find solutions.


There's fresh satellite data which the European agency got access to. Even Americans pilots have been sending anonymous logs detailing the nose dive thing, plus Boeing was to send patches to fix the issue. I think Trump was right in this, you don't gamble with human life for profit and reputation.

Apparently, Boeing had given US pilots fresh training, did they do that to the rest?


There was no training rolled out to the rest but I also read that the government shutdown May have delayed the rollout of the software.


@Masukuma, there is something to be said about over reliance on technology that is becoming more and more common in many industries. I have no experience about the aviation industry but I am familiar with it in another industry.

Technology has inserted itself between experts and their tools in the name of making it easier for the expert but has inadvertently led to the unintended consequence of making expertise less relevant. I will give you an example.

In the medical industry it is possible for you to go to a high end hospital and find all the personnel who have the training to take care of a problem you may have, let us say a broken leg and yet find that they can't help you.

The doctor will be there and he will look at you and say that he needs an xray. However, the hospital systems are linked in such a way that he can only requisition the xray through the computer system. If for some reason there is a network problem so that he cannot enter the details in, he and the patient are stuck.

The Xray technician knows how to operate the Xray machine but not the software that runs it. The systems are designed to only accept to take an xray that has been requisitioned through the system.

Sometimes it is even more frustrating than that. The physical machines may be working perfectly well but the computer system that runs it is faulty and the only way to get it fixed is to call a guy in Bangalore India.

IT systems have become the middlemen in most industries. They are experts of the system not experts at solving real world problems yet they are a constant irritation to those trained to solve real world problems.

In the Medical example above before everything was linked every expert was also a lowtech expert of his tools. A doctor could get another pen to write his prescription if the one he was using was not working.... and even if he did not have a pen and paper he could walk with the patient down the hall to the xray room and tell the technician verbally what he wanted. The technician knew how to operate his xray machine and troubleshoot whatever problems it had there and then without having to go through a middleman computer systems expert.

This thing has become so pervasive so that the lines of expertise are becoming blurred. There are surgeons now who have become experts at doing operations but only using million dollar machines so that if he did not have the million dollar machine he would not be an expert at anything.

https://www.healthline.c...ion-or-ripoff-021215#11


Yes... but patient care in such environments is MUCH better than the traditional doctor with a stethoscope and a pen. Sure - technology can be annoying sometime but lets face it People die less in these health facilities compared to the old way of doing things. the outcome is not 100% but it's better. It's like self driving cars - they are continually being improved. Those cars are way better statistically than human driven vehicles. of course you "feel" safer in human driven vehicle on the tarmac... well statistically that's the most unsafe place you can be. but there is no reasoning with feelings... feelings have been wired to keep us alive and they are just heuristics. Flying... not a human thing... our heuristics will fire off everytime we fly. I happened to fly from JKIA on the same day the Ethiopian Flight crashed... it wasn't easy... I normally don't care what type of plane I fly in but over that trip... my heuristics were firing! regardless of my knowledge of statistics


You are right technology has improved a lot of things over the last 100 years. There is however something sinister about the technological improvements of the last 20 years in the internet, interconnected age. In previous times when someone made something that did something better they most times always tried to make it easier to use and they trained the users not only how to use it but also how to troubleshoot problems and fix them themselves. In other words ukinunua kitu umenunua.

These days you actually don't buy anything completely. There are strings attached to whatever you buy in the name of updates and such. No sooner have you learned to be comfortable using something than you are told it is obsolete and you need something new. It is now in the best interest of any company to make sure their customers don't know how to use their products so that they can sell them trainings and support and updates. The biggest revenues are in monthly fees and subscriptions.

masukuma
#639 Posted : Friday, April 05, 2019 5:25:47 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,121
Location: Nairobi
Kusadikika wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Kusadikika wrote:
masukuma wrote:
murchr wrote:
masukuma wrote:
wukan wrote:
masukuma wrote:

Now Trump is an aviation expert! This is just reacting instead of responding. The very reason we have fewer accidents is because of these complicated things. Innovations drive the human race forward. It's quite ironical that a guy who communicates with his followers through twitter and the internet is talking trash about the internet. If the people who invented the phone left it just left it that you could call people - Trump would not be president! If the people who invented the internet left it as it was - Trump would never have been president. Innovation moves the world forward - sometimes there are unfortunate events (Toyota Prius brakes, Samsung Note 7 explosions, Dreamliner battery issues and now the Max 8 issues) but they will be fixed and we will move forward into a safer future.


I'm sure he was acting on a lot of intel in coming to this decision. Algos and AI have been known to go rogue. e.g. after the Air Sweden 294 crashed in 2016, investigators were able to determine that the Air Data Inertial Reference Unit, or ADIRU — a device that tells the plane how it’s moving through space — had begun to send erroneous signals. But they couldn’t figure out why.

Facebooks chatbots Bob and Alice had also invented their own language-a variation of english to communicate to each other. They had to be shut down.

It may not be a safer future if humans can't be in control or regain control.




Why do you automatically assume that he was acting out of intel and not a knee jerk reaction? What in his history made you think this? Algorithms are not new... AI is not new. What you consider going 'rogue' is technically known as a bug or a glitch. Something that works in a way other than how the manufacturer intended it to work in certain conditions. how many flights a day do these planes make?
So in 2017 airlines carried 4.1 BILLION passengers from and to 20,000 city pairs.
Number of KMs flown in 2017?
1. American Airlines (324 billion)
2. Delta Air Lines (316.3 billion)
3. United Airlines (311 billion)
4. Emirates Airline (289 billion)
5. Southwest Airlines (207.7 billion)
How many aircraft in the air at peaktime? 5000! These are the conditions. It's important that we stop being lazy and use blanket statements for things we cannot explain. This is what has gotten us here! it's ok to say you don't know why a certain phenomenon is occurring and you will investigate and it's also fine to say that even after investigations are done - you don't know why. Other people will come after you. But if you create an answer... AI going rogue... Algorithms messing us up - you create a mind block by an answer you cannot prove. When people used to die of diseases people assigned them explanations - demons, God's curse e.t.c. This did not help in curing the disease. only when people came up with scientific explanations WHY certain phenomenon took place - did we find solutions.


There's fresh satellite data which the European agency got access to. Even Americans pilots have been sending anonymous logs detailing the nose dive thing, plus Boeing was to send patches to fix the issue. I think Trump was right in this, you don't gamble with human life for profit and reputation.

Apparently, Boeing had given US pilots fresh training, did they do that to the rest?


There was no training rolled out to the rest but I also read that the government shutdown May have delayed the rollout of the software.


@Masukuma, there is something to be said about over reliance on technology that is becoming more and more common in many industries. I have no experience about the aviation industry but I am familiar with it in another industry.

Technology has inserted itself between experts and their tools in the name of making it easier for the expert but has inadvertently led to the unintended consequence of making expertise less relevant. I will give you an example.

In the medical industry it is possible for you to go to a high end hospital and find all the personnel who have the training to take care of a problem you may have, let us say a broken leg and yet find that they can't help you.

The doctor will be there and he will look at you and say that he needs an xray. However, the hospital systems are linked in such a way that he can only requisition the xray through the computer system. If for some reason there is a network problem so that he cannot enter the details in, he and the patient are stuck.

The Xray technician knows how to operate the Xray machine but not the software that runs it. The systems are designed to only accept to take an xray that has been requisitioned through the system.

Sometimes it is even more frustrating than that. The physical machines may be working perfectly well but the computer system that runs it is faulty and the only way to get it fixed is to call a guy in Bangalore India.

IT systems have become the middlemen in most industries. They are experts of the system not experts at solving real world problems yet they are a constant irritation to those trained to solve real world problems.

In the Medical example above before everything was linked every expert was also a lowtech expert of his tools. A doctor could get another pen to write his prescription if the one he was using was not working.... and even if he did not have a pen and paper he could walk with the patient down the hall to the xray room and tell the technician verbally what he wanted. The technician knew how to operate his xray machine and troubleshoot whatever problems it had there and then without having to go through a middleman computer systems expert.

This thing has become so pervasive so that the lines of expertise are becoming blurred. There are surgeons now who have become experts at doing operations but only using million dollar machines so that if he did not have the million dollar machine he would not be an expert at anything.

https://www.healthline.c...ion-or-ripoff-021215#11


Yes... but patient care in such environments is MUCH better than the traditional doctor with a stethoscope and a pen. Sure - technology can be annoying sometime but lets face it People die less in these health facilities compared to the old way of doing things. the outcome is not 100% but it's better. It's like self driving cars - they are continually being improved. Those cars are way better statistically than human driven vehicles. of course you "feel" safer in human driven vehicle on the tarmac... well statistically that's the most unsafe place you can be. but there is no reasoning with feelings... feelings have been wired to keep us alive and they are just heuristics. Flying... not a human thing... our heuristics will fire off everytime we fly. I happened to fly from JKIA on the same day the Ethiopian Flight crashed... it wasn't easy... I normally don't care what type of plane I fly in but over that trip... my heuristics were firing! regardless of my knowledge of statistics


You are right technology has improved a lot of things over the last 100 years. There is however something sinister about the technological improvements of the last 20 years in the internet, interconnected age. In previous times when someone made something that did something better they most times always tried to make it easier to use and they trained the users not only how to use it but also how to troubleshoot problems and fix them themselves. In other words ukinunua kitu umenunua.

These days you actually don't buy anything completely. There are strings attached to whatever you buy in the name of updates and such. No sooner have you learned to be comfortable using something than you are told it is obsolete and you need something new. It is now in the best interest of any company to make sure their customers don't know how to use their products so that they can sell them trainings and support and updates. The biggest revenues are in monthly fees and subscriptions.



oh yes... planned obsolescence - kwani mnathani watu wanakula nini?


All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Apricot
#640 Posted : Friday, April 05, 2019 9:12:47 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 10/26/2011
Posts: 171
Location: Nairobi
I remember I used to solve calculus by simplifying a problem to a point where I could solve it without a calculator. That was labourious. Today my child just needs to know the right approach to the solution then pull out her TI-84 graphical calculator to complete the problem.

On one hand the technology frees us from more mundane tasks like the calculation I did years ago, and frees the mind to focus on broader or deeper issues, if the mind is put to such. On the flip side though, it lends opportunity for the mind not to put effort in conceptual depth, simply because tools and software have taken out that curiosity for many.

But would I want to return to the era of FORTRAN or Basic programming or to Windows 3.1 MSDOS platform. Perhaps not. I like what I can do with PYTHON or C++, so newer technology is inevitable and No to dumbing down!

In the same breath, just as we thought that Moores law was reaching its limit (smaller and more numerous transistors fitted in the same area as before), we discover 2D materials like graphene, red phosphorus, molybdenum sulfide to expand the arena. And so we continue to make more powerful, flexible yet cheaper IC chips. Humanity will thus see more technology integrated in their everyday activities, like in sensors. cars, trains, planes, fridges, entertainment, traffic signals, security cameras, etc, because we can afford to. Technology will thus continue to be an integral part of our lives and we should find ways to make sure that it will work as intended 99.9% of the time. That should be the goal.
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.
David Hume
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